Hello! How are you? I hope you are doing well :)
Here are the notes from Episode 20 of the podcast, which you can also check out on Spotify and Apple Music!
In this episode I had a chat with Xenia, a sustainability blogger with a Masters in Sustainable Development.
Xenia grew up in Russia, and following her education, moved to the Netherlands. She has embarked upon her journey into minimalism, zero waste, and continuing to learn and spread awareness about challenges to sustainability, zero waste, minimalism and mental health among many other things.
In this conversation, she shares her experiences living a zero waste and more minimalist life, along with discussing impacts of privilege making this more attainable, and barriers surrounding sustainability.
She explains the ways in which capitalism is the root of many problems the world is facing, shares advice on managing eco-anxiety, and of course how she finds her little bit of Lagom.
Her Background:
Xenia studied International Relations for her Bachelors, then Sustainable Development for her MA. This course was one of the only sustainable development and environmental science-oriented programs in Russia that didn’t have to do with geology or engineering at the time.
She was excited by the prospect of studying this course, so she applied and was accepted for it.
During her studies, she went for a semester abroad to Germany, and this highlighted for her how different the approaches were for sustainability.
The school of thought that was being taught in 2015 was drastically different in these two places – in Russia, her professor would still say the climate is changing but that it’s something natural that happens, and it’s debatable whether human activities are contributing to it.
However, in Germany the conversations very clearly recognised climate change as an anthropogenic factor (a human caused problem).
Xenia explains how these actions impacting the climate have been going on for decades, but due to nature’s healing capacities, for example absorption of heat in the oceans, we have only begun noticing more recently the damage we have been causing over this time.
When learning about this in 2015, Xenia felt incredibly overwhelmed, and a huge sense of urgency, since it is a climate emergency.
The United Nations conference in Paris in 2016 was something many environmentalists were hopeful about, but sadly very little has changed since this time. Of course, some things have improved, but at the same time, elsewhere we have digressed e.g. USA pulling out of the Paris Agreement (thankfully, that should be changing once Joe Biden becomes president!!).
However, the worry is that this may not be enough since so much damage is already done and continuing to be done. The Paris Agreement is only a commitment and not actually legally binding, so it perhaps isn’t holding countries accountable enough to make the drastic changes which are needed.
“When you learn these kinds of things, I think it would be hyper critical not to change the way you are living your life”
Some changes were easier than others, which can seem intimidating, but small changes add up and then it’s possible to make bigger changes in your life.
Upon graduating, Xenia moved to the Netherlands, and she feels this also helped in her making these changes in her lifestyle.
First changes she made
Xenia would consider herself on a minimalist and zero waste journey. She prefaces this by saying “this is a journey, it’s a journey for everyone and it will look different for everyone”
For her, it began with minimalism and spilled over into a sustainability focus.
She had been moving houses a lot, and realised that she enjoys having fewer material things. She wouldn’t consider herself an extreme minimalist. She loves the aesthetic of this, but it isn’t something she can see for herself.
She began the de-cluttering process with her clothing – she grew up in a poor household, so was always taught to look after belongings, making clothes last by repairing them when they were broken rather than throwing them away, dyeing black clothes once they faded, using shoe polish etc.
Fast fashion, she admits, was seductive to her at some point, but she realised quickly these clothes weren’t built to last, and the practices involved in production are so unethical.
She sold a lot of things online. A good platform for this in the Netherlands she would recommend:
Markplatz (marketplace). Often free items on there also!
Rather than throwing things away, find a new owner!
She noticed at one point, she was buying things she really didn’t need to try to fill a hole, things that she perhaps wanted as a kid for example.
She recognised you can’t really give it to yourself when you were a little kid, and she isn’t a kid anymore, so these materials were just shallow.
“You can’t buy a toy now, and be as happy as you would have been 20 years ago”
She actually cares much more about experiences than material possessions that she perhaps used to dream of having.
After this, she started thinking more about what the stuff she was buying was made of, or packaged in. If it was packaged in, or made out of plastic, could she find a more sustainable alternative?
You can be surprised sometimes by what you can find plastic free, both in terms of food and cosmetics, but Xenia admits it can take more time and effort which is of course a privilege not everyone has!
Something that helps with reducing plastic – not eating meat! Since meat, especially if not from a local butchers, is packaged in plastic for hygiene purposes. Many other foods don’t need plastic.
She then began looking into switching to vegan and cruelty free cosmetics, researching about it she was horrified by the incredibly inhumane practices still happening with animal testing, and she didn’t want to be a part in that by putting her money into companies still engaging in these awful practices.
Animal testing is not necessary when it is possible to do clinical tests on skin cells grown in a lab for example.
Due to her zero waste perspective, she decided she didn’t want to waste any of the products she already had, so if they were already opened, she finished them and then replaced them with vegan alternatives, or if they were unopened, she gifted them to family/friends who would use them.
Creator called Small Wardrobe on Youtube:
This blogger reviewed some Black Friday videos and the marketing/ideas behind having and buying things. A lot of the marketing campaigns appeal to the sense of scarcity in us.
As human beings, we are designed to preserve ourselves. Marketing appeals to our animal brains to make us feel like we ‘need’ this thing to survive, which of course we don’t!
“We don’t have to measure our happiness and well-being in wealth”
But Marketing is very good at making us feel as if we need certain things in order to be happy, to feel secure, to be liked etc.
“The problem is you can’t consume all the time, and you can’t produce endlessly”
The planetary boundaries – when depletion of resources reaches a certain amount, they can no longer be restored. Fossil fuels, trees etc.
Trees – when you cut down trees, you are destroying a whole eco-system/habitat.
“The premise that we can be developing and growing endlessly and still not destroy the planet is false”
Another huge problem is the massive disparity of wealth in the world – some people are sitting on billions of pounds/dollars, whilst others are trying to survive on less than one pound/dollar per day.
Statistic – 100 businesses are responsible for 60-70% of global emissions.
Overpopulation Myth – this misconception that we have too many people to feed, when actually we just have too many rich people, and a lack of fair disparity of resources. The small percentage of the population who hold the most wealth are enjoying the most at the expense of others.
1/3 of food is wasted!! Goes back to the lack of disparity. Because the top percentage are benefiting from this flawed system, although so many are suffering there is sadly such a complacency or lack of agency in changing this.
Xenia’s Perspective on the Barriers to Sustainability
The fact we are aware of these issues and discussing them is a sign of privilege, since we have been able to acquire education/knowledge required to grasp the complexity of these issues. Not everyone has access to that knowledge.
Many people would argue that it is too expensive or too time consuming to live more sustainably, but as with most things, the coin has two sides.
On one hand, it doesn’t have to be expensive, it just requires behavioural changes and a shift in intention, but on the other hand, what Xenia compensates in not spending money is spending time, which in itself is a privilege as many people can’t afford to take this time.
This also highlights how it can be unfair to place a high level of responsibility on individuals, because so often it is the companies that are benefiting and should be held accountable.
The more time and money you have, the more power you have. If you’re in this position, you have to use that influence for positive change.
It’s far better to encourage people than to shame them into certain behaviours.
“I would never shame anyone for not being sustainable because who knows what they are going through…. I’m pretty privileged to live this kind of life that I do”
Thoughts on making knowledge about environmental sustainability more accessible:
It's so important to relay complex information in a way people who aren’t experts in this area can understand.
“There are so many people still being climate skeptics, partly because fake news is still so strong”
If we have the time/knowledge to read and understand complex scientific articles, we owe it to others to share this information and relay it in a way that’s more accessible.
“Knowledge should be for everyone”
Somehow, we have to make a link between the scientific research, and encouraging/informing us to make change/be informed about these things.
“Humans don’t understand numbers well”
An abstract number is much harder to grasp or relate to. Xenia gives a beautiful, personal example of how to relay information in a relatable way that evokes their empathy and humanity.
Biodiversity
Sadly, this is often being undervalued and dismissed in climate conversations, but it’s so important.
For example – deforestation – when we cut down a tree, it’s not just the tree that is lost. Habitat for wildlife is destroyed, it would take a newly planted tree 30 years to have the same carbon dioxide capturing capabilities as the tree deforested.
“We do need to be empathic to everyone… researchers with their numbers sometimes forget”
We think we are outside of this eco-system, but it’s all so interconnected.
“We should see ourselves in this big bubble with the planet, the plants, with everything.”
Problems are rooted in the lack of equality. We should value other species equally, and each other equally.
“If you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spends its whole life believing it’s stupid” Einstein
Book Recommendations:
Think like a Tree by Sarah Spencer:
The Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Wohlleben:
Microbiology detour – we are not a whole, solid person. About 80% of us are microbes.
“Sometimes you feel like you want a chocolate bar, but actually it might be your microbes that want the chocolate bar”
Xenia finds it fascinating how we think we are solid, but we are actually millions/billions of cells doing their quiet work.
“And that’s how we should see the nature as well. Everything living and breathing together. It’s all connected”
Podcast episode about microorganisms:
Our Discussions on Capitalism and Economic Growth
Economy is not just to do with money, it really has to do with everything!
“We are living in an incredibly unfair system”
The current system only values certain aspects of labour, and only certain materials. There is so much unpaid labour that is not valued in the same way as paid labour, for example emotional labour, raising children, housework vs going to a job in an office.
Gender disparity also links into this, along with racial inequality – discrimination in pay, treatment of workers etc.
Economic growth continues to push this idea of needing to consume more, buy more, have bigger houses, more possessions, if something breaks, it is more common to replace it rather than repair.
“It’s very hard to think outside of this system because it is how it has operated…. But producing more is not an option anymore”
She’s completely right. We have islands of trash in the oceans, companies burning clothes that haven’t been sold, a horrific excess of food being wasted, resources being depleted.
We can’t produce our way out of climate change.
We may not have an alternative to this system yet, but there is a strong movement of people incredibly motivated to find solutions. We are beginning to hear from different voices rather than the one narrative that has dominated society for so long. This diversifying of the narrative is crucial for a sustainable solution.
So much more needs to be done, but there is something to be hopeful for.
“We are not at war with another nation, we are at war against structures and the climate crisis. “
Xenia is still hopeful this is solvable. Especially if we take the approach of 'What’s within each of our capacities to contribute to the solutions?'
Managing Eco-anxiety
This is something Xenia is still struggling with herself, but she explains how it’s important we allow ourselves to recognise what we feel, and that it’s completely normal to feel that way in the face of all of this.
Feeling this way is also a sign that you are caring about these incredibly important issues.
“Remind yourself that even comparing to the moment when you started, you’ve already done so many amazing things”
Focus on what you are able to do, don’t spread hate to other people, there’s already enough hate in the world.
“I would never shame anyone for not being vegan or vegetarian… I want to support anyone… and remember how I was several years ago”
“It’s just a journey, and maybe this is your beginning”
It’s so wonderful Xenia opens up a space to talk about mental health. I find it very inspiring as I am still fearful about talking of my own experiences with my mental health, and I hope I'll be able to talk about it more openly in the future.
Xenia wants to support anyone if they or someone they know is suffering with their mental health.
Respecting Differences in Cultures When Thinking About Sustainability/Veganism
Indigenous people living in circle with nature e.g. in Russia, indigenous people of the North. They consume meat and use animal products from the deer for survival. It’s not something I am doing, but something to be respectful of.
In more developed nations, we are no longer reliant on meat to survive, and it is very rare that any of us are going out to hunt our own food. If we all saw the realities of what was happening in the meat and dairy industries more openly, I think more people would be vegan.
Xenia stopped eating meat once she wrote a paper on the welfare of animals in the Netherlands – it’s considered to have strict regulations to support welfare of animals, yet the conditions are incredibly inhumane and horrifying to see. You can’t knowingly ignore that.
When it comes to climate, and unethical practices, we can't lose hope and feel as though "the world is already going to shit, so what’s the point in doing anything to change it”.
If we discovered a spill on the floor, we wouldn’t just tip more on it as that will just make things worse. I’d like to think we would try to clean it up somehow, even if we could only clean a little bit.
How Xenia Finds her Little Bit of Lagom
A nice little surprise when Xenia asked me how I find my Little bit of Lagom – I don’t think what my little bit of Lagom is stays the same on each day or each moment, I think for me it involves checking in with myself, trying to tune in to what I really need in that moment to find more grounding and balance, to come back to myself and find a more all rounded perspective.
I normally find this when I’m in nature, or when I’m moving my body, but it’s still something I’m constantly figuring out what helps me come back to myself.
For Xenia – she never stops learning, there’s so much out there, and she can’t stop being amazed about how screwed we are when she learns more about climate change, but at the same time she’s also learning more and more how cool the solutions can be. This gives her hope, it keeps her motivated.
I also never want to stop learning, and I love that this is her little bit of Lagom! The more we learn, the more we can apply to our own lives and share with others.
Thank you to Xenia for such a thought-provoking conversation, sharing your perspectives so generously and bringing a sense of hope into what can feel so hopeless sometimes.
If you’d like to find out more about what Xenia is up to, you can find her on Instagram @sustainaxenia and on Youtube:
If you have any thoughts, please drop me a message, and please leave a rating/ review on apple podcasts it really means a lot and is super helpful to receive feedback.
And I’d love to hear from you if you’re listening right now – what would you like to hear more of/ less of, what questions do you have?
Instagram @alittlebitoflagom and email alittlebitoflagom@gmail.com